F1 General | Joe Unplugged | 185 | The Biggest Business Transformation in F1: What Changed Everything?

Listener Heath asks: what's the biggest business change in Formula 1 over the last 20 years? There's no shortage of candidates — Liberty Media's acquisition, Drive to Survive, the end of tobacco money, the Concorde Agreement restructure. But Joe Saward lands on one, and makes the case that everything else followed from it.

In this episode, Dick and Sabrina dig into the business transformation of F1 with Joe, who watched the Bernie Ecclestone era up close and has covered every twist since Liberty took over in 2017. Joe's answer is the cost cap — and his argument is that it only became possible because the pandemic forced the issue. Teams burning hundreds of millions a year suddenly faced a world with no racing and no revenue, and Chase Carey's proposal went from impossible to inevitable almost overnight.

What followed is a story of franchise value explosion that would have seemed unthinkable in the Ecclestone era. Teams that were money pits are now serious investment assets — and the private equity interest in F1 tells you everything about how much the sport's financial profile has changed. Joe gives the paddock view on who's buying, who's selling, and what that means for where the sport is heading. The conversation also takes some detours worth hearing: Rob Walker, Bernie's forgotten racing career, the Paddock Club as a global networking engine, and how a phone call to a former British prime minister got Formula 1 back on the road during COVID.

Check out Joe online: 

• JSBM Newsletter 
• Grand Prix+
• The Green Notebook

Transcript

Speaker: 0:02

Hey friends, thanks for taking time to listen in on a conversation Dick and I had with Joe Saward, one of Formula One's most independent and insightful journalists. Listener Keith asks, how do you what are the markers that As you'll hear, it's a question And that, Joe argues, tells you keeps its history. But before we get to our you help us out? If this show adds value to your F1 experience, please take a moment to follow us and give us five stars on your favorite podcast app. Share this episode with other F1 That's how people find us and it's how we keep growing this community. Hope you enjoy our conversation. Okay, gentlemen, we have got a How do you define different F1 What are the markers that So for me, I love this question because it's really asking how do you make sense of F1's history? When we say the turbo era or the era, what are we actually I know that especially with your training as a historian and you've covering the sport for as long as you have, having been at every Grand Prix all that time, this is very much in your wheelhouse. I will say, I'm thinking there define eras depending on what Like the turbo era is a The Schumacher era is a driver The Bernie era is about the So are these all legitimate like one unified way of And I would say as Joe and Dick, what, before we even get into like specific eras, what's your framework? Like, how do you define that? I'll let you guys kind of walk The thing about Formula One is framework in any respect. Now, the FIA cannot be bothered So people argue about how many there's no definition of what a There's no definition of did he No, they just don't. They have done nothing, which is could, except they're not They're not allowed to But you could commercialise baseball or as happens in books and people are excited by So there's no official For me, eras are best defined by basically the turbo era. The turbo era could have started But basically, when Renault been possible for years, but But when they turned up, then it became the beginning of the turbo era. And then a few years later, everybody switched across to turbos because it worked much better. So you can't really do it just on a regulation, but you can do it on set events that spark the change in terms of driver errors. You can. How do you define when the How do you define when the When was the Senna and Prost Where? How did they overlap? It's all very blurry and it's use because they can't they framework on which to name The Bernie era. Yeah. But Bernie's era went on I mean, yes, you can say the Liberty Media era started in twenty seventeen, which is which is fair enough, but I don't think there's any real set definition. There's certainly no there's no happened and this happened. So it's really down to you want to call it that. Historians deciding when an era What do you think? Yeah, I align with you pretty speaking, I was saying, well, I think more of? And as a as a guy that's side, I think I would probably And yet I certainly recognize there's a Schumacher era and there's a Senna era and or Jackie Stewart. I think about like in F1 where you went from the front engine roadsters of the nineteen fifties to the rear engined Cooper, which then became super refined when they went to a one and a half litre normally aspirated engine and everybody said, oh, they're never going to be fast enough and they're not noisy and you know, all that kind. In fact, it sounds almost like was back then. But anyway, that's another But anyway, because I'm all kind of stuff, right? But then you have the defining and Cosworth coming in and that dominated for what, ten More than that. Yeah. Yeah. And so you can have the Cosworth But of course not everybody had There was always Ferrari. Right. There was always there were So I think it's just yeah It is imprecise. And it is therefore because it's You can apply whatever word you Yeah, absolutely. You know, it's really I stumbled across an old plastic house, and it had a bunch of old film, and there was four reels. You know, those old timey reels And they were all from the nineteen eighty US Grand Prix at Long Beach. And so you had Villeneuve and And you had Alan Jones and the Williams and all that kind of stuff. And you've taken those. Yeah, I had I was there on I would have been twenty two. Yeah. Twenty two. Buddy of mine and I went to this And it was remarkable how like Long beach was like I was yeah, grubby, but okay, a dive. Yeah, that would be it. And, um, Taylor's bars and Yeah. Pretty much. And yet I got some footage of opposite lock smashing into And I mean, as a twenty two year old, I remember it being a magical thing. And when I saw that film, which, good shape because it was kept inadvertently because I just But, um, I as fast as possible. Yeah, it may make it. And then people, you know, you Yeah. Probably could. I, I did go and get it And so it's now video, you know, on two guys, a girl on F1 and on It's just a really fun And I was just like, wow, this was really it was the race where Clay Regazzoni had that huge wreck that left him paralyzed, I remember. Yep, yep, I saw it. I was still a fan at that point. I, I was a relatively new fan, seasons back then. It's really interesting. I remember more details about some of the more modern seasons because, you know, at the time, about everything that you here and then they went there Grand Prix's nearly, you know, and you can't. I mean, the Schumacher era is just like sort of a massive long blur. And to be fair, you know, also a little bit like that with the Lewis Hamilton era and the and, and the Vettel era, because when there's too much of the same thing, it just becomes, I can't remember which race, what happened where and this kind of stuff, but which is why they invented the internet, by the way. Um, you know, so we don't need know, I have all these books. I don't know if you can. Well, I have a huge number of And as time goes by, I realize anymore because any question I and almost always I can find a question, and I'm sure half actually done chronologically. And so, you know, I'm sure there around that sort of said the there are, which is, again, point, it's really what you Yeah. And you know, Joe, it's really interesting because as as you were talking about the history and remembering races from, you know, how many, however many years ago, thirty or forty years ago. It's interesting. You could also say that the Grand Prix that was run by Jo that was the end of the because I don't think a I'd have to think about that. It depends how you define Well that's true. I would say brawn Grand Prix was Oh that's an interesting. Well, yeah. Okay. You could argue today that McLaren is a privateer, to be honest, because they're not a works team. But what are they? You know, they're beating the I don't know, I don't know how again, how you define the privateer. Isn't that an interesting When you when you put it that Let me interrupt you then. Why don't you both attempt to define privateer or privateer is easy. A privateer is not a works team, and a works team is, generally speaking, in the Formula one world. It is something that does the So, you know, every Cosworth privateers up to some extent. But that is the actual Now that can be, for example, if engine and then you are the Alfa If you are Brabham back in the where that may be, Aston Martin are not a privateer. If you are a customer of a manufacturer as opposed to the works team. So Audi is a works team, McLaren, Alpine and Williams alpine makes their own cars. And even if McLaren makes their own cars, the engines are not their own. So that's how I would define a Dick, do you agree? Disagree? Oh, I find it difficult to to But I will say this Rob Walker a chassis from Lotus and he So I'd like it. Oh well, yeah, there you go. They bought chassis from engine from someone else. So they are a privateer. They are if they're called represent General Motors, they And you could say the same Passes. Passes very much like that Dallara, whichever way you look about all these things. And again, because there's nothing there's no precise rules. There isn't a privateer cup, for I don't see why there should be Everything's very imprecise because that's how it's grown up to be. I remember arguing with Max need to have proper definition. Years ago I did a, I was, oh, I in Grand Prix dot com. I don't have anything to do with nowadays, but I still have shares and we created a database of formula one and defining who was what. What was the shortest Grand prix That's a really interesting And the answer is there was an fifties who qualified, got on getting ready to start, his And so the shortest run, inches, you know, how do you if you fall off on the warming part in that race? There's all these questions, but to define it, everybody just And we. In the end, at Grand Prix dot This is what we believe to be And if you look at it, uh, Marlboro had a statistical guide for many years, but we disagreed with Marlboro on a number of the definitions. You know, was Bernie Ecclestone, a Grand prix driver, because he tried to qualify cars back in the nineteen fifties but failed to qualify. Really? Yeah. They had no idea. Really? No. He would. He had a Connaught. He bought a Connaught. Failed to qualify at three or Now, for me, he's not a Grand qualified for a grand Prix. You could say he was F1 driver because he raced the car in other in other non-championship events. But is that the definition of F1 driver and Grand Prix driver are different? Interesting. Interesting. And there's a whole bunch. There are literally hundreds of Grand Prix's, who I don't Prix drivers very. I've always said it's very So. And because nobody. Nobody has come up with an There are no rules. Fascinating. You know, it's funny about I knew that he was an F3 driver. I had no idea that he actually non-championship F1 races. That's interesting. He bought a. He bought a of date by the time he got it, or four races, but he just Now, that's not something you that's always been. I mean, in recent years we haven't had people failing to qualify. But back in the early nineties, we had forty cars trying to qualify for Grand Prix, and we had pre-qualifying. And those teams rarely survive very long because if you if you spend all the money to go and you had one hour session on a Friday morning very early and then you were going home, you basically didn't have much chance of survival because you didn't get paid money to, to turn up. Nowadays, everyone's getting So, you know, it's going to be to go out of business unless But I actually think it's cap and with the valuations of anybody's going to get in the hundreds of teams Over time, a lot of the guys who became that failed before. Frank Morgan failed several Ron Dennis, I don't know if you was called Project Ford. You know why? Mhm. Because projects one, two, and Yeah. Because I always thought of team, I think. And you know, they all he set grand prix team. And you know that's what And that's why it became project four, because the other three projects had not gone far enough. It's interesting. I had no idea. You know, there's lots of Well, you learn from your bit easier because, you know, money, you know. Yeah. You've got an entry. But if you have and we're seeing the guy, the guy who owns and he's doing Only on the basis it's worth, the team is worth years from now. He's laughing, isn't he? And I think that's you know, he's he's had some success in in football. He's had some success in other So it's just it's just a private equity rolling the dice to see what happens. But right now, you know, sports lose any money. We'll see how it goes. It doesn't make it. It doesn't make it a worse or It just, you know, it's just a And they're playing the game and probably playing it well enough from a commercial standpoint that they're going to win regardless of what happens on track. If you have if you have Cadillac behind you and really behind you and GM there, you then do what all the factory teams in the history of the sport have done, which is you lean on your suppliers. And so you'll see, you know, car seat manufacturers will be on the side of the car oil suppliers and this kind of stuff. So or other companies, you know, don't you do this? That would be really good idea. And it'll make us much more, you more attractive to us for all So, you know, we'll see how it But the the sport has got a almost bulletproof, I would say. So, yeah. That model is, uh, is a really Yeah. It's a, it makes sense. Bring your partners along for You know, that would be the Excellent. Sabrina, you've been very quiet. I've enjoyed listening to you interrupt other than making sure would say is a follow up Why does it even matter if we Is it just an academic exercise to better understand the sport? That's a that's a really Yeah, because there is a there where fewer and fewer people history in any sense. And so I think some of the nothing about any of the history They might have a few vague were young and watching it on they don't have any real came from, and that's just a When I started out, I knew I didn't have this this childhood steeped in racing cars. I remember when I was about cars in the distance when they because I lived in south London. And I remember this this, this some days, you know, sort of And I knew what it was about, I never saw it. You know, it wasn't something But when I got into it, I just and wanting to find out the the whole thing. And I think that's just a Does it matter? Probably not. No. Will those fans stay Maybe. Maybe not. Who knows? I don't know. But I think that there is such a rich and wonderful history and the people. That's the thing for me, the people in the sport are just extraordinary people in every generation, extraordinary people. You know, there's no grand prix Yeah, right. And I think it just depends on whether you want to find all these all these fascinating stories, or if you just like the soap opera of week to week, you know, the drive to survive approach. And if you look at general television in any country, you know, you have soap operas on every day and people live by them, you know, and they're fascinated to know what these fictional characters will get up to next. And it's, I sometimes I'm, I anyone can be that fascinated by But that's just me. You know, I'm much more the past, the real people and But does it matter? No, it doesn't matter at all, Because those who want to be sport more deeply will do so if Initially with the internet now, into it and to find more. But I remember, I mean, when I started, I knew so little about the sport that I didn't even know there were specialist magazines. I used to read the newspapers, of report they do these days Prix, and that was all I knew. And literally I, I'd walk in, I I suppose, and I was walking and I saw, blimey, what's that? That's a, that's a magazine Wow. Really? Never even crossed my mind. And then I discovered there was And then I discovered there were ones in different countries and you know. And so you go on with that and, you know, you this is how you build this, the passion, to be honest. That's what liberty wants. They want the casual fan, the very much to be fascinated and And if they're drawn into it, then spend money and they will it falls from their pockets. Yeah, it makes sense. Yeah. That's the art of sports Yeah, I think it does make Like when I listen to you, I mindset, probably naturally. But it's interesting to listen is a example of the era. And then mine is an example of Like when you talk about the a magazine is kind of what I One, as our audience knows, my entry into the sport really came through John. And just having these conversations with him, the rest of the family and understanding racing, I would walk away going, oh, well, that's very interesting. And then as the internet And of liberty eventually came as a So much more information started I would get excited when seem like it randomly showed up that rabbit hole. I think that for me, answering in makes me appreciate how the and where it could go. To see that development, and if anything, I personally believe that progress without historical appreciation doesn't then have a foundation like you don't you need to have both like so that way you can appreciate where something has grown from to know how much further you want to see it go. So when you see all these current, I see a lot of people coming into the sport expecting things of the sport, and I think you really don't have a frame of reference. You haven't spent time understanding even how far the sport has come to then put these aspirations and then even attack the sport for not meeting your expectations. And it just seems unreasonable But if you would spend some time to even see what the sport has done, and especially in the greater context of history and culture, you might be surprised as to how far and what has been accomplished already. For example, when people talk motorsport, it wasn't until one highlighted that there have been disciplines, and A reminded us those women in that period of And that it isn't that it isn't It just needs to be amplified. And so that's just one piece for But I'm maybe it's because I'm who, once I find something, I'm I just go down that rabbit hole I'll stay awake wanting to read from different directions. Just to give you an idea. I mean, particularly relating to audience back in the day when I buy, I think it was road and they were monthlies. And that was about all you could And I started my newsletter, However, many years later in nineteen ninety five, because the email had arrived by then and I thought, well, I could be, I can be three weeks ahead of US publications and I just have to find Formula One fans in America. And so I started writing this what was going on in the sport And obviously after that, okay, anywhere because people just ET cetera. ET cetera. But as time went by and the but that was, you know, ninety You'd say it wasn't quite to that era and that's what It was like sort of this is something that we can use to spread the word about Formula One. And I think we did a very good. We had a large, large number of money doing it, you know, so, so But I think that's how far we've have to go. Your point about where the gets an audience of, you know, something in the US. That's nothing. That is really nothing compared series, it's about the same or I mean, NASCAR's coming down. IndyCar is about the same. You know, they're all kind of Similarity in terms of numbers. But then, you know, you wheel in the NFL and they're doing twenty, twenty nine million a race or a game rather or whatever, averaging. It's just and, you know, then hundred and thirty or whatever. Formula one is scratching the Now, what do you need to make it And there's lots of answers You need teams for people to Fundamentally more important teams is you need a driver to support and not just any old driver. You need a successful driver. We need a nineteen, sorry, we thirty Mario Andretti to take into society, if you like. And that's why drive to Survive and why the movie, why these things are so important is that's the beginning of the process. But it's got so, so much more that is there because it's formula one is cosmopolitan, it's international. And okay, maybe in, in, in, in Dare I upset everybody? But in the middle, people don't But, you know, there's a lot of international and cosmopolitan You know, if you look at the numbers of Americans who go to visit Paris every year or go to other places to understand their culture, there's something very chic and very sexy about Formula One. And I think more and more people And, you know, and I see this I was in Baku of all places last year on an aeroplane, and I was astonished by the number of Americans on the aeroplane, because I'd never I've never seen an American in Baku before, but they were all going there for the Grand Prix because it was basically a cheap deal compared to buying tickets in Austin or buying, you know, getting a hotel, buying tickets, feeding, transportation, everything. Add it all up. It was cheaper to go to Baku than it was to go to Austin, which sound loony, but that's the truth. And so you're seeing this growth of this, this and these people and people walking around the paddock in Baku wearing cowboy hats, you know, it's like sort of I am not I am not saying this, but I was and they were they were there, you know, making American noises as Americans do. And they were having a great And they will go back and you know, that Baku is just there'll be more Americans in It doesn't matter where, you know, it might be a bit of a trouble to get them to go into some of the Middle Eastern places. But over time, you know, once you learn about them a little bit. And that's what I also love broadens the mind. If you travel and you understand the places you're going, you begin to understand all these things, the cultures, it's fantastic education, and it's such a good thing for the world to understand one another a little bit. Yes, because people sitting on their islands thinking that they're the best is really not very positive. And I, I say that as a Brit, you attitudes in lots of countries, do is go out there and travel see how everybody is really It's just they're at different and different ways of doing it. And I think that that is part of Yeah. Even going back to what you said about the cost of an American going to Baku versus going to Cota, it's interesting because I don't know where this is going to land in our release order, but I actually had a conversation with two Canadian fans, and that it was cheaper for them to go to Barcelona or to Cota and one other place than to go to the Canadian Grand Prix. And especially because of where is shockingly expensive. There's a couple of reasons for that, and it might change a little bit. I'm not seeing any evidence of it this year, but it usually coincided with Graduation weekend. And also it was always seen as And believe me, it had a long So people who spend their entire lives dressed up in snow protection gear when the sun comes out in Formula One arrives. They all come rushing out and And with graduation as well. So all the hotels, everything jammed crazy and everything And it's been a big problem for But it's not the only city like I mean, you know, going to Las Vegas is okay because they You've still got enough space, which is very expensive. And as Formula one becomes more popular, the prices continue to go up. So it's a sort of it's a conundrum that we have as to and also impact on the media, by the way, because there are fewer and fewer media going to the long haul races because they can't afford it. You know, in some countries, for example, going to Australia, if you want an Australian media visa, which you should have to go there. That's that's an additional, uh, in American dollars, that would be about three hundred dollars just for four days to be a journalist. That's what they charge you any of the travel costs, without bills that you have to pay. And is it surprising that the And that's a worry, because that means that the people who are writing about Formula One on the internet and everyone thinks they're there, they're not there. The majority of them are not there, and they're just making it up, uh, from what they can find from and, you know, Google Translate has been very helpful for that because they can translate German stuff and they can translate stuff in different languages and they can get stories. They don't know if the stories stop them, you know, and some of because they, they just are more others, but they don't know going on, which is fascinating. But it is a kind of a fake And the day the real media dies are they going to nick from? True answer is they'll nick from because they'll still be going. But it's the the teams are what they want people to read. And the television is always best of the television is only It's an orchestrated broadcast. I mean, we see that with even some of the controversies that have come out as to why are you cutting away to X when I want to see why? And so that just shows that it's a controlled narrative and that doesn't that's not necessarily nefarious. It's because you're trying to We can give them the benefit of But I think what you're lose independence or a volume of independence are now shut out. It allows for a very controlled those who are controlling it are But what happens when you have Then there is nobody challenging It's happening at the moment. You know, if you look back over every single story about Why is that? Who is putting out all these stories about things from the rules, from the fuel and Tokoto He said, I just don't get it. Why? Where is it coming from? Who's doing this? I think he knows damn well who's say it out loud. That is the media being standing up and saying hello. Wait a minute, there's something And who's doing it? It can be a bit of everybody. It can be the opposition trying And, you know, you've got to have people who stand up and say, actually, no, this isn't true. And I think we saw a lot of that as well at Red bull, where this is wrong. He's a bad person. Nobody said, well, hang on a Have we got any proof of any of It's just the minute you make an it seems to become a fact. And that's wrong. That's what media is supposed to Media is supposed to go, well, Let's just have a look at this. What is this about? And as we've found out now, if you look over time, that all really comes about trying to get Christian Horner out of the team ultimately. I mean, what he did, what he didn't do, we don't one hundred percent know. We absolutely don't know. But what it did was it disrupted It disrupted the team. It made some people want to It made some people leave. It just took their eye off the Rightly or wrongly, I believe He's about to come out, and I believe they're going to major on this quite a bit as to which side they'll come down on, I don't know, but you have to be careful about the media coverage. If you don't have the individual hang on a minute. And so that is, I wouldn't say it was a danger per se, but it will anaesthetise the sport a little bit because everything will go through committees as it is when there are press conferences, uh, drivers and team principals are given kind of cheat sheets in advance to make sure they say all the right things. They go in there prepared for they have an answer that's been Now, some of them don't pay as And so you have people who say But, you know, the pressure not to say controversial things is very strong. That's not good. It's not it's kind of censorship in a way, weird kind of censorship, but it's, you know, it's commercial censorship, if you like. I mean, I could I could argue a that when you are in a your employer and you've agreed commercial consequence, they do talking points and you are Like, I think some of the predicate questions that we would want to ask, though, is how much of a bargaining position was that individual before they entered into that contract? And did they feel that they had before they agreed? Some would argue that drivers come from a very low bargaining position. They're willing to acquiesce to and aspiration for so many years So they're willing to do and say whatever to, um, toe the company line. So I can, again, I can argue as an organization is that you maintaining talking points. Now more than ever because of You want clarity and uniformity that you're sending out is valuations and the consequences So I guess I'm trying to argue other side of I'm not saying I'm just saying that we have to look at it from a three hundred sixty. The various motivations and If you look at, for example, Sure. When he was young, he didn't say because you don't feel confident But then come twenty twenty, around that period when he's a multiple world champion and nobody can touch him, he starts having his own little I'm not little. He starts having his own campaigns, if you like to get the points he thinks are important and like taking the knee at races and this kind of stuff, you know, And that was is that right? Is it right that sportsmen make I don't know if it is. But then again, is it right to Because the FIA, for example, in don't take a political position What is a political position is activities a political position? They've done it. Is that right? Is that moral? I mean, I don't know the answer I'm just raising the questions. Who gets to decide the rights and the wrongs of where what is is there any morality you can apply? Because there isn't a you know, if the FIA is is doing what it wants to do, thinking that's the best thing. Are they the people, are they I mean, they should be. That's true. But I was very disquieted by the I didn't think that was right. And you know, but that's just I wish I did know the answers to suppose I don't need to know. I'm just here to question, to ask the questions, but sometimes to prove points that this isn't right. But if there's nobody around like me to do that, that's worrying. And a lot of people out there, eighty percent of the media you Formula one has got nothing, no Well, because you can see that across multiple public, public, quotes, publications or they're all saying the same spin, it it feels like, well, source and or how are you coming I mean, I, my personal opinion have we should be able to have People should be able to Do it in a civil way, respectful There's nothing wrong with I think going back to one of your examples, I think it is a very delicate balance of political statement, but then also harnessing a person's personal opinions. If anything, it's a question of Is it the appropriate place to. I'm not saying I have an haven't sat and thought about when the controversy came up to the sport, is the best place happened, or is it through agenda for like, is it about the about actual sustainable change? And how does that happen from an Or does that happen from long And talking about it, I have conclusion, but I think it's a This is a fundamental thing finish this particular topic, we that have different reputations. Okay. And some of them have bad people in the West, in our moral If you go there and you meet think, oh, maybe actually the hypocritical about this. Maybe we're as bad as they are in some respect, like the death penalty. You know, people say you can't the death penalty. Well, I can think of a few death penalty, and we're only So these are questions about answer to them and I don't know. But I think that what sport can sport is to connect societies not black and white issues. There's a whole lot of gray, and hypocritical about things when society and at the same time you're doing the same thing in a So I think that we just need to things politically and just to It's also very irritating if you're one of these other countries and you find yourself being condemned. It's very, very annoying. If you like to be told that there you go. So I don't again, as I said before, I don't know the answers because there aren't necessarily answers, but I think these are subjects that should be thought about and they should be handled carefully, but just not not made into things. They're not just take sport what Sport is sport. Sport is fun. Sport is entertainment. If wars break out, sports stops, You know, and it's so we have to remember that we're just an entertainment formula one does a little bit for the technology of the world. You know, they do stuff that can You know, there's a fascinating thousands of babies have been created by Formula One engineers tiny babies and stuff like that. Okay. That's good, but ultimately, It's just fun. And the thing is that sport takes people out of the drudge, if you want to call it, of real life. It gives them a chance to dream, at your desk in a boring it's like to be in Monte Carlo. You know, I call it the magic If you can get onto the magic bit of it. Formula one has done its job. It's made life better for And I think that's really what I see in it, and I don't think we should waste too much time politicizing it. But at the same time, we should Dick, I'll let you give the last word before I close this out, because I know that your day job is calling. Oh it is. You know, I. Well, number one, I think this has been a fascinating conversation, and I think that we must have gone down at least three or four rabbit holes beyond the original question, which was, what do we think about the various eras of Formula One? But this has been a really And I think about, you know, Joe road and track and car and there was to get F1 information. And I can confirm that ten year track, partly because as I had conversation, I just love the It was so personal. It was like you were a member of his team and you got that reporting and it was absolutely wonderful. And that's part of what got me I've carried it forward fifty years later, almost. And so sixty years, oh my But anyway, and that's that's to me what's made the sport so great. It is cosmopolitan. It, it is going to different I don't care so much about the glitz and glamour, but I really do care about the teams and the drivers. And that's because I've been at You know, we've got some dear All of them were collegiate Both the the husband, the wife collegiate sports, right. Know nothing about Formula One. And then all of a sudden they discovered the show called Drive to Survive. And now all of a sudden they're like asking questions and all that, and they're becoming fans, right? But they have no idea about the And so that then is left to well, you know, there was this the nineteen seventies or this And, and, you know, you can show them video of these guys and what they did and bring them slowly into the sport and have that appreciation. But until Drive to Survive came Oh, they were sticking ball And I think the other part of it is, is that if you enjoy sports, it's really easy to enjoy Formula One as much as you enjoy basketball or golf or whatever, even if you can't really relate to what these athletes are doing in a Formula One car, because it's not like driving to the grocery store. So that that's just my take. And I think that, you know, back so hard to get any information to put effort into it, I hung on Whereas with the internet, it's That's a really good point. That's a really good point. I like that, and if anything, I very different direction that I But I think that that's probably He didn't expect it. Uh, I think it is a good thing because it shows our passion for the sport. And if anything, when we answer about the question about eras that we're looking at it with all these different perspectives, I will say, I think that you can have multiple eras exist. I was drawing on my paper and I was trying to figure out, how do I even explain this since we're not a visual podcast, but I can see eras for the technical on one. Like if you have a spectrum of a other historical analyses that that shows the technical era, starts the driver error. So for example, using the Schumacher and then above that could have been a line that shows the governance of of Bernie. I think that it's a opinion, of how you look at eras that you could just look at only through line, you could see as you noted, Joe, that driver passing of that baton, that's a wouldn't see if you only looked a very structured and markered. And then governance also is much of those other. So I think you would do a just look at one instead. If you were to put those multiple layers, that gives you the rich tapestry that the sport has. And then if anything, looking at the conversation that we ended up taking, it shows why some of these elements are necessary of the independent journalism, the willingness to have conversation about facts. You start to see that in that looking at the history. So that's my last piece. I take the last word technically And on that note, I say, gentlemen, thanks for this conversation. Thank you. Okay, friends, what did you We'd love to hear from you. What questions are you wrestling What should we dive into next? Send them to Sabrina at Two We read every single one. And frankly, your questions are usually more interesting than what we'd come up with on our own. And with that, let me say this keep talking and you can keep two guys, a girl and F1 for Sabrina. Thanks for listening.